calculated time route way to short
Quote from peterdeen01 on 16.05.2020, 07:10When I plan a route on small backroads the calculated time is way to short. Maybe Scenic uses the legal speed limits but those are absolutely unrealistic on backroads. Is there a setting to adjust the average speeds to calculate with?
Curious is that when I copy public routes (using backroads) in my area, that route initially shows realistic times until I start editing. Times shown are about 50% of realistic times. See attached example pics
When I plan a route on small backroads the calculated time is way to short. Maybe Scenic uses the legal speed limits but those are absolutely unrealistic on backroads. Is there a setting to adjust the average speeds to calculate with?
Curious is that when I copy public routes (using backroads) in my area, that route initially shows realistic times until I start editing. Times shown are about 50% of realistic times. See attached example pics
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Quote from Guido on 16.05.2020, 09:09Hi Peter,
im making some adjustments to route calculation duration estimations for next update. Could you share the link to this route (or copy of the route) through the ‘deel’ button? Then I can play around with that.
Meanwhile, try changing the routing mode to ‘short’, or even ‘fast’. (Those modes use max speeds provided by map which are usually too low for motorcyclists, why’re efficient mode uses some default values per country and road type).
Changing routing mode will probably not affect the actual roads taken as there are many via points, but double check to be sure.
Hi Peter,
im making some adjustments to route calculation duration estimations for next update. Could you share the link to this route (or copy of the route) through the ‘deel’ button? Then I can play around with that.
Meanwhile, try changing the routing mode to ‘short’, or even ‘fast’. (Those modes use max speeds provided by map which are usually too low for motorcyclists, why’re efficient mode uses some default values per country and road type).
Changing routing mode will probably not affect the actual roads taken as there are many via points, but double check to be sure.
Quote from peterdeen01 on 17.05.2020, 05:27Hi Guido,
This is the link to the public route that I copied to my account. The moment I open the route to edit the time is recalculated from 2:02 to 1:02 hour. https://scenicapp.space/route/FBXvpROq
The original route is 'Smalle wegen en kleine dorpen' from user Jelvis. I can not (don't know how) share this original route.
Note: in all modes (short/fast/efficient, or curvy/extra curvy) the calculated time is slightly over an hour. What is the difference (in settings?) between the calculation from Jelvis and mine?
Hi Guido,
This is the link to the public route that I copied to my account. The moment I open the route to edit the time is recalculated from 2:02 to 1:02 hour. https://scenicapp.space/route/FBXvpROq
The original route is 'Smalle wegen en kleine dorpen' from user Jelvis. I can not (don't know how) share this original route.
Note: in all modes (short/fast/efficient, or curvy/extra curvy) the calculated time is slightly over an hour. What is the difference (in settings?) between the calculation from Jelvis and mine?
Quote from peterdeen01 on 17.05.2020, 06:09Also tried out kurviger.de (nice!) to create a new route; 114km, 2:49 hour (see picture 1)
Used the send to Scenic button (cool!); now the route is 1:34 ?? (see pic 2)
Also tried out kurviger.de (nice!) to create a new route; 114km, 2:49 hour (see picture 1)
Used the send to Scenic button (cool!); now the route is 1:34 ?? (see pic 2)
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Quote from Guido on 17.05.2020, 06:46The problem is not that there is something different with the Jelvis route and your route, the difference in duration is caused by the re-calculation that’s done when you start editing or navigating and the fact that I have been changing road speeds between the moment of creating that route (by Jelvis) and the moment it was recalculated (by you editing or starting navigation).
summary: I have been playing around with these road speeds to get estimated route durations more accurate. This was successful for most routes, at a cost for some routes using a lot of small roads.Ill see what I can do to adjust this for next update.
If you’d like more/nerdy details, keep reading 🙂
A while ago it was reported to me that durations for routes were often over estimated (too high compared to reality). So I started playing around with the road speeds that Scenic uses for the efficient routing mode. Only efficient mode because for short and fast mode Scenic always uses the speeds provided in map data (which is often incorrect for smaller roads). Can’t override those for short and fast.
There are about 60 speeds defined in Scenic, depending on road type (from unpaved small driveway to highways) and location (inside or outside city).
To get the durations more realistic I made several smaller changes (increasing max speed), and one big change. The big change was for the ‘unclassified’ road type. This means roads that do not have a category/type according to the map, meaning, in essence, Scenic doesn’t know if it’s a highway or a small path. I increased speed for the unclassified roads A LOT, which, gave a very good result for most routes, except for the routes containing a lot of those unclassified roads.
Typically, especially in areas with well maintained map data (like Netherlands) road types are known in the map data, so that ‘unclassified’ speed is not used a lot. However, it seems that the roads in this route do have a lot of those ‘unclassified’ roads in it.I am going to play around with this a little bit more. Perhaps I can decrease speed for ‘unclassified’ roads and increase it for other road types. It is a balance act to try and get realistic durations for all routes if ‘unclassified’ roads are many and vary from being highways to small roads like in this route. But, I can probably get it better than it is now.
The problem is not that there is something different with the Jelvis route and your route, the difference in duration is caused by the re-calculation that’s done when you start editing or navigating and the fact that I have been changing road speeds between the moment of creating that route (by Jelvis) and the moment it was recalculated (by you editing or starting navigation).
summary: I have been playing around with these road speeds to get estimated route durations more accurate. This was successful for most routes, at a cost for some routes using a lot of small roads.Ill see what I can do to adjust this for next update.
If you’d like more/nerdy details, keep reading 🙂
A while ago it was reported to me that durations for routes were often over estimated (too high compared to reality). So I started playing around with the road speeds that Scenic uses for the efficient routing mode. Only efficient mode because for short and fast mode Scenic always uses the speeds provided in map data (which is often incorrect for smaller roads). Can’t override those for short and fast.
There are about 60 speeds defined in Scenic, depending on road type (from unpaved small driveway to highways) and location (inside or outside city).
To get the durations more realistic I made several smaller changes (increasing max speed), and one big change. The big change was for the ‘unclassified’ road type. This means roads that do not have a category/type according to the map, meaning, in essence, Scenic doesn’t know if it’s a highway or a small path. I increased speed for the unclassified roads A LOT, which, gave a very good result for most routes, except for the routes containing a lot of those unclassified roads.
Typically, especially in areas with well maintained map data (like Netherlands) road types are known in the map data, so that ‘unclassified’ speed is not used a lot. However, it seems that the roads in this route do have a lot of those ‘unclassified’ roads in it.
I am going to play around with this a little bit more. Perhaps I can decrease speed for ‘unclassified’ roads and increase it for other road types. It is a balance act to try and get realistic durations for all routes if ‘unclassified’ roads are many and vary from being highways to small roads like in this route. But, I can probably get it better than it is now.
Quote from peterdeen01 on 18.05.2020, 03:29Thanks for your quick responses and actions Guido! Changing standard speeds for unclassified roads might be a mission impossible because there won't be a one-size-fits-all solution. For curvy mountain roads the speed limits will typically be somewhat too low for most riders, though the relaxed touring group might well stay below that. Backroads in my region/country are narrow with lots of villages, (farm)houses, dirt and absolutely not designed for speed. Though the speed limit outside of the city is 80 kmh in most rural area's it's 60 kmh now (with exception of main connecting roads).
So whatever you use as setting, you will never get it right. Adapt it to give me a realistic time in my area and I will likely come back after my first trip to the Ardennes or Sauerland to complain 😉
What about giving us a user setting? Driving mode relaxed - regular - fast, or make it a slider with 5 settings.
If your current settings would be 'fast' and 'relaxed' is 55% of that, than it would give me a perfect estimation 😉
Thanks for your quick responses and actions Guido! Changing standard speeds for unclassified roads might be a mission impossible because there won't be a one-size-fits-all solution. For curvy mountain roads the speed limits will typically be somewhat too low for most riders, though the relaxed touring group might well stay below that. Backroads in my region/country are narrow with lots of villages, (farm)houses, dirt and absolutely not designed for speed. Though the speed limit outside of the city is 80 kmh in most rural area's it's 60 kmh now (with exception of main connecting roads).
So whatever you use as setting, you will never get it right. Adapt it to give me a realistic time in my area and I will likely come back after my first trip to the Ardennes or Sauerland to complain 😉
What about giving us a user setting? Driving mode relaxed - regular - fast, or make it a slider with 5 settings.
If your current settings would be 'fast' and 'relaxed' is 55% of that, than it would give me a perfect estimation 😉
Quote from Guido on 18.05.2020, 06:52Thanks for understanding. You are right, can’t get it right for everyone and for all kinds of routes. I know what you mean with the kinds of roads. I am from Netherlands originally 🙂.
Having said that I do think I can get it better. Not all roads are unclassified. In fact I’m going to assume that the bigger roads are classified in Netherlands. Only the smaller roads will be unclassified, so what I’m going to do is lower the speed for unclassified, but increase it for the known roads. That should make it better for routes like yours while estimation for other routes would remain similar.
I tried a similar thing to your suggestion in the past. While it’s very easy to multiply duration with a factor based on what your setting would be, once you start navigating the route it’s not that easy anymore. Suppose the last stretch of the route is on the highway? You are not going to ride at 55% of the allowed highway speed I assume, so then your ETA would be way off. Yes I could think of all kinds of workarounds for that too, but it would be, as we say in Netherlands, a “pleister op de wonden” (in short, it would become a mess) trying to work around a problem which should be solved by better speed limit data from the map provider in the first place.
Thanks for understanding. You are right, can’t get it right for everyone and for all kinds of routes. I know what you mean with the kinds of roads. I am from Netherlands originally 🙂.
Having said that I do think I can get it better. Not all roads are unclassified. In fact I’m going to assume that the bigger roads are classified in Netherlands. Only the smaller roads will be unclassified, so what I’m going to do is lower the speed for unclassified, but increase it for the known roads. That should make it better for routes like yours while estimation for other routes would remain similar.
I tried a similar thing to your suggestion in the past. While it’s very easy to multiply duration with a factor based on what your setting would be, once you start navigating the route it’s not that easy anymore. Suppose the last stretch of the route is on the highway? You are not going to ride at 55% of the allowed highway speed I assume, so then your ETA would be way off. Yes I could think of all kinds of workarounds for that too, but it would be, as we say in Netherlands, a “pleister op de wonden” (in short, it would become a mess) trying to work around a problem which should be solved by better speed limit data from the map provider in the first place.
Quote from peterdeen01 on 18.05.2020, 09:29Let me know when you've made changes, very curious 🙂
Regarding highway speed 55% of legal limit, nope.
But the 55% was compared to 'fast' which I assumed was about 15-20% above speed limit . . .
But I fully understand your point and also, don't give the 'boerenweggetjes en dijkjes' over here too much weight in the settings since it will be just a small % of use cases.
Succes!
Let me know when you've made changes, very curious 🙂
Regarding highway speed 55% of legal limit, nope.
But the 55% was compared to 'fast' which I assumed was about 15-20% above speed limit . . .
But I fully understand your point and also, don't give the 'boerenweggetjes en dijkjes' over here too much weight in the settings since it will be just a small % of use cases.
Succes!
Quote from Guido on 22.05.2020, 11:22
Quote from peterdeen01 on May 17, 2020, 05:27Hi Guido,
This is the link to the public route that I copied to my account. The moment I open the route to edit the time is recalculated from 2:02 to 1:02 hour. https://scenicapp.space/route/FBXvpROq
The original route is 'Smalle wegen en kleine dorpen' from user Jelvis. I can not (don't know how) share this original route.
Note: in all modes (short/fast/efficient, or curvy/extra curvy) the calculated time is slightly over an hour. What is the difference (in settings?) between the calculation from Jelvis and mine?
OK. Made some changes (for next app update v2.2.9)... i can get duration for this specific route up to 1:22. I don't want to change it more as that will effect other routes and possibly even the routing (the roads taken) itself. Will send you separate email also
Quote from peterdeen01 on May 17, 2020, 05:27Hi Guido,
This is the link to the public route that I copied to my account. The moment I open the route to edit the time is recalculated from 2:02 to 1:02 hour. https://scenicapp.space/route/FBXvpROq
The original route is 'Smalle wegen en kleine dorpen' from user Jelvis. I can not (don't know how) share this original route.
Note: in all modes (short/fast/efficient, or curvy/extra curvy) the calculated time is slightly over an hour. What is the difference (in settings?) between the calculation from Jelvis and mine?
OK. Made some changes (for next app update v2.2.9)... i can get duration for this specific route up to 1:22. I don't want to change it more as that will effect other routes and possibly even the routing (the roads taken) itself. Will send you separate email also
